Curse

reaper with no name · Apr 18, 2009, 05:37 AM // 05:37

After reading through several threads in this section of the forum, a question kept coming to my mind:

"Ok, so Dervishes suck except when they're in a situation where AoM or AoD is useful. But does it HAVE to be that way? Are there any exceptions?"

So, here is my challenge to you all: Find/make a build that does the following:

A) Is a Dervish primary
B) Doesn't utilize AoM, AoD, or VoS
C) Does X better than a Warrior, Assassin, or any other profession could if it tried to do a build with similiar capabilities (does not necessarily need to be the same thing, [ie, it could tank better than an assassin, but not as well as a warrior, but be more damaging than the warrior])

In other words, I challenge any willing to accept to find a "good" Dervish build that doesn't rely on the typical crutches. Call it an exercise in optimization.

Revelations · Apr 18, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

D/N orders builds are more effective at physical buffing/partyheals than any N/X alternatives. Boring as hell bar to run though, therefore usually left to heroes.

The only other advantage that dervs get over warriors or sins with a scythe in pve (not using any of the elites you specified earlier) is that they have a free secondary to run a conjure/whatever.

Warriors and assassins both have better energy management, better maintainable IAS skills and better survivability, in addition to having very similar damage output. (crit agil/defences on a sin. shouldn't have to explain war.)

kedde · Apr 18, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

They're better at abusing PvE skills than warriors and assasins, simply because theirs are more overpowered.

Revelations · Apr 18, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

They're better at abusing PvE skills than warriors and assasins, simply because theirs are more overpowered.

The only PvE only skill that dervs get better use out of than any other class is Eternal Aura, which is really only useful for avatars, which OP was trying to avoid.

Aura of holy might is equally effective on a W/D or A/D as it is on a D/X. I don't think you'll find any major advantages that a D/X has over a scythe sin/war aside from a flexible secondary, which basically gives you slightly more versatility.

Vulkanyaz · Apr 18, 2009, 11:19 AM // 11:19

IMO the Dervish needs a few changes to make it more worth using over a warrior or assassin. I still play mine, but I feel like it could be done just as well, if not better on a warrior or sin

Inferno Link · Apr 18, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Assassins use the scythe better than Dervishes lol. I love my dervish but the only edge we have over other classes are avatars and that's it really.

street peddler · Apr 18, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

you could run a derv bomb build using [skill]arcane zeal[/skill]. not actually effective but you could just run it for kicks..

reaper with no name · Apr 19, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Well, pretty much what I was dreading. Oh well, maybe this build that I spent the day wracking my brain to come up with could work (or at least provide humor for those of you who actually know what the heck you're doing):

[Faithful [email protected]][Armor of [email protected]][Ebon Dust [email protected]][Crippling [email protected]][Victorious [email protected]][Mystic [email protected]][Aura of Holy [email protected]][Heart of [email protected]]

Vs A/Ds:

The most armor an A/D is going to be able to get from armor is +24, and this gets +34. Yeah, it's not much, I know, but it's enough to make this build tank slightly better than an A/D. If a sin wants to out-tank this build, it'll probably have to give up the scythe and go with a different secondary (in which case, this build now has the advantage of being able to hit multiple targets at once in melee). As a bonus, it also has the advantage of being able to spam blindness. Unless there's something I'm missing, there's no way a scythe sin is going to be able to out-tank and out-blind this build at the same time.

Against W/Ds:

This won't be able to compete with a W/D in tanking, but it still has the advantage of inflicting blindness. A Scythe War has to burn their elite on Warrior's Endurance in order to be able to afford scythe attacks. I could only find one Strength-based War attack that didn't use energy. The only other options a W/D has for attacks are energy-based, which will mean that in order to be viable the W/D needs Warrior's Endurance. Hence, it won't be able to use EDA and spam blindness like this build.

So, either way, it has an advantage of some sort. It's not an "OMG, nobody can beat me at this one particular thing" build, but I'm hoping it's a build that at least has something it can brag about to any other given build.

The major weaknesses of it that I can see right off the bat (beyond the usual for a Derv) is that Armor of Earth will really slow it down (one of several reasons I went with crippling sweep; it slows enemies down), and it might be difficult to maintain four enchantments (a 20% enchanting mod should really help with that, though).

So...Please tell me I'm at least getting warmer. If I wanted a female dervish, I would have made one.

Hanging Man · Apr 19, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno Link

Assassins use the scythe better than Dervishes lol. I love my dervish but the only edge we have over other classes are avatars and that's it really.

lawls too true, too true

way of the master, wounding strike, malicious strike = you dead

FoxBat · Apr 19, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

The slower movement rate on Armor of Earth is a huge liability, and blind foes don't hit your armor anyway. I think the assassin wins that round.

Grenth/Lyssa avatars seem overlooked and less situational than mel/dwayna, Although scythe might not be the best tool for them.

[Vow of Silence] is pretty good for running, there has to be a silly build in there somewhere.

Desert Rose · Apr 19, 2009, 09:30 AM // 09:30

A build that i'm currently testing:

[Wounding Strike] [Mystic Sweep] [Eremite's Attack] [Attacker's Insight] ["Save Yourselves!"] [Heart of Fury] [Aura of Holy Might]

Last spot either [[Chilling Victory], [[Lyssa's Assault] or a rezz.

Has more deep wound-spam than a warrior/dervish, and more "SY!" than a sin/dervish.

reaper with no name · Apr 19, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The slower movement rate on Armor of Earth is a huge liability, and blind foes don't hit your armor anyway. I think the assassin wins that round.

Grenth/Lyssa avatars seem overlooked and less situational than mel/dwayna, Although scythe might not be the best tool for them.

[Vow of Silence] is pretty good for running, there has to be a silly build in there somewhere.

I suppose the armor might not be necessary. However, upon investigating the last poster's build, I realized that SY! (you would not believe how long it was before I realized what that stood for

) is a Warrior skill and can't be used by Sins.

Oopsie.

Well, easy fix then.

[Faithful [email protected]][Save [email protected]][Ebon Dust [email protected]][Aura of Holy [email protected]][Victorious [email protected]][Mystic [email protected]][Crippling [email protected]][Heart of [email protected]]

Same advantages as before, except this time instead of better tanking than an A/D, it helps the party out more by giving them all a lot of armor for a few seconds every once in a while, becoming a temporary aggro magnet which just happens to be ready to blind the poor dumb mobs.

Oh, and this'll mean one less enchantment to maintain. Goodie.

The reason that Grenth and Lyssa are overlooked is because they just aren't that good. Back before I knew how much Dervs sucked, I was running a Conjure Frost AoG. I thought being able to deal +10 dmg and 18 life steal to enemies with each attack was huge. Then I found out what a sin could do with AoHM.

Anyway, point is, an AoL D is just not going to outdamage a scythe sin or scythe war. Nor is an AoG one (and the life steal won't make it a better tank than the warrior, either).

zwei2stein · Apr 19, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I suppose the armor might not be necessary. However, upon investigating the last poster's build, I realized that SY! (you would not believe how long it was before I realized what that stood for

) is a Warrior skill and can't be used by Sins.

Oopsie.

Well, easy fix then.

[Faithful [email protected]][Save [email protected]][Ebon Dust [email protected]][Aura of Holy [email protected]][Victorious [email protected]][Mystic [email protected]][Crippling [email protected]][Heart of [email protected]]

Same advantages as before, except this time instead of better tanking than an A/D, it helps the party out more by giving them all a lot of armor for a few seconds every once in a while, becoming a temporary aggro magnet which just happens to be ready to blind the poor dumb mobs.

Oh, and this'll mean one less enchantment to maintain. Goodie.

The reason that Grenth and Lyssa are overlooked is because they just aren't that good. Back before I knew how much Dervs sucked, I was running a Conjure Frost AoG. I thought being able to deal +10 dmg and 18 life steal to enemies with each attack was huge. Then I found out what a sin could do with AoHM.

Anyway, point is, an AoL D is just not going to outdamage a scythe sin or scythe war. Nor is an AoG one (and the life steal won't make it a better tank than the warrior, either).

Sorry, but A/W moebius dagger sin with SY! slotted wins this round.

If you want to continue, i suggest loosing skills that drag your damage performance and/or just waste slots. [Faithful [email protected]], [Crippling [email protected]] are all subpar.

Also, AOM makes you deal holy damage, which renders [Ebon Dust [email protected]] useless. I suggest you abuse PvE only skills like [Sneak Attack] to get its effect (if you are dead set on blinding) and use [Wounding Strike] as your elite skill.

reaper with no name · Apr 19, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

The A/W doesn't have a scythe, and therefore can't attack multiple targets at once in melee. Nor does it have the ability to blind multiple foes at once via EDA + Scythe.

But *bleep*! You're right about AoHM! That's what I get for trying to think of builds at 2 AM. Guess I'll drop AoHM then. There's no point in going for damage, it looks like. Blinding is really the only way I can think of to make this build do what I want it to. I'll leave damage to the rest of the party. I don't have EoTN, and even if I did, Sneak Attack isn't nearly as spammable as attack skills with EDA.

Hmmm...So then the question becomes, what to replace AoHM with? Perhaps [Sunspear Rebirth Signet]? It's way too late for me to think of anything better.

EDIT: No, no, no, wait. I don't think I have to drop AoHM at all. I'll just get rid of one of the other skills (let's say, Crippling Sweep), and replace it with something that changes my damage type to earth (Staggering Force). Cast AoHM, then Staggering Force and EDA, and then I'll get the benefits of both AoHM and EDA.

So now it looks like:

[Faithful Intervention][Aura of Holy Might][Staggering Force][Ebon Dust Aura][Mystic Sweep][Victorious Sweep][Heart of Fury][Save Yourselves!]

Once again I end up maintaining 4 enchantments, but at least it works. And hey, now I can inflict weakness too.

Ok, that's enough for one night, I'm going to bed.

zwei2stein · Apr 19, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

1) Assassin has [Death Blossom], hitting multiple enemies (not capped at three like scythe) for armor ignoring damage. That allows it to win over scythe damage.

2) If you are going to be blind bot, you are better off with /R, giving up scythe and using [volley] and not by slotting crappy skills like [Staggering Force]

FoxBat · Apr 19, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Moebius generally doesn't win over scythe AoE though. Yeah it's 90 armor ignoring but it's only every 2 seconds, scythers can mash decent armor-related damage with AoHM, AoE deep wound for 100 instant damage, and it just gets more ridiculous if you happen to be using way of the master. If you're stuck on the same targets for a while the dagger damage wins out, but if stuff is dying left and right the deep wound has the advantage.

Scythesins do lack SY, although a dagger sin can spam the skill more reliably, but it's a notably different build.

Volley does have a better AoE range, but the damage is crap, and it doesn't actually hit many more foes. There are reasons to use a scyther EDA.

That said the listed builds seems to have too many enchantments/energy issues. Trying to cycle Staggering force so it stays on top seems like a losing game, especially when it won't end soon enough for the mysticism bonus to trigger. You're better off augmenting your damage with pve abuse like Asuran Scan etc.

Konker2020 · Apr 19, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

[buildprof=D/A desc="Zealous Daggers" Mys=12+1+2 Dag=12][Golden Lotus Strike][Wild Strike][Repeating Strike][Death Blossom][Faithful Intervention][Watchful Intervention][Heart of Fury]/{OPTIONAL}[Avatar of Lyssa][/build]

This build usually gets some negative comments until it gets thoroughly tested, so I usually refrain from showing it, but it is extremely effective, even in HM...

The energy is optimal b/c of [[Avatar of Lyssa], and [[Golden Lotus Strike] contributes if you somehow manage to hit rock bottom energy (eg. massive e-denial). But the damage you do without skills is still massive, and extremely useful against casters too. Check it out, you might like it.

You could sub out [[Heart of Fury] for a rez if you absolutely need one, I never use one b/c I never need it so...

NOTE: Also extremely useful in PvP, damage spikes of 300+ damage, no jokes.

Revelations · Apr 20, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

You could sub out [[Heart of Fury] for a rez if you absolutely need one, I never use one b/c I never need it so...

Wait.... you're going to drop one of the only useful skills on that bar?

reaper with no name · Apr 20, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Moebius generally doesn't win over scythe AoE though. Yeah it's 90 armor ignoring but it's only every 2 seconds, scythers can mash decent armor-related damage with AoHM, AoE deep wound for 100 instant damage, and it just gets more ridiculous if you happen to be using way of the master. If you're stuck on the same targets for a while the dagger damage wins out, but if stuff is dying left and right the deep wound has the advantage.

Scythesins do lack SY, although a dagger sin can spam the skill more reliably, but it's a notably different build.

Volley does have a better AoE range, but the damage is crap, and it doesn't actually hit many more foes. There are reasons to use a scyther EDA.

That said the listed builds seems to have too many enchantments/energy issues. Trying to cycle Staggering force so it stays on top seems like a losing game, especially when it won't end soon enough for the mysticism bonus to trigger. You're better off augmenting your damage with pve abuse like Asuran Scan etc.

See, that's the thing, I'm not better off focusing on high damage. Going for high damage is pointless because I'll never be able to reach what a scythe sin or scythe warrior can reach. I'll just end up with a build that is consistently worse than it's counterparts in every single way.

The whole point of this build is that it can't be fully eclipsed by a warrior or sin. Sure, you can make a build that is better with a scythe than this one, or one that is better at spamming blindness on multiple foes in melee, or a build that has SY!

But, you can't make one that beats this build in all three areas at once.

- A W/D who goes with Warrior's Endurance won't be spamming blindness.

- A W/D who goes with EDA still won't be as good at spamming blindness due to energy concerns.

- A W/non-D won't be cutting up 2-3 guys at once because they won't have a scythe.

- An A/D (or A/non-W, or D/R, or R/D) won't have SY!

- An A/W won't be spamming blindness on multiple foes at once in melee (no scythe).

Are these other builds better overall than the build I have here? Possibly (and in some cases probably). But it's better to "win" in 1 category out of 3 than to win in 0 out of 3 (which is pretty much guaranteed if I just go the "MOAR DAMAGE/MOAR TANKING/MOAR BLINDNESS!!! *BLEEP* ALL THE REST!!!" route). The only way a Derv is going to be able to have anything on a warrior or sin is through versatility, not through over-specialization. The latter route just leads to inferior copies of warriors and sins. So, this build forces the warriors and sins to choose. They can be better than this build in a myriad of areas. But no matter how they build themselves, this build will have at least one small thing that it can do better than them.

Anyway, as for the maintenance issues, I do agree that it's difficult, but I don't think it's necessarily insurmountable. I already carry a wand with extra energy for fueling enchantments. If necessary, I could start using a zealous scythe. And finally, it's not actually a requirement that I have to keep all 4 enchantments up at once. I don't have to blind stuff and do damage at the same time. I could settle for one or the other if it came down to it and change based on the situation (maybe even in mid-battle). Again, versatility.

Crap, I wish I had a more clever way of ending this wall of text. Curse you, limitations of human language!

zwei2stein · Apr 20, 2009, 05:31 AM // 05:31

I have strong sense of deja-vu in this thread.

Anyhow, reaper, you overestimate value of blindness and value of dervish and blind bot.

With SY, blidness is nearly obsolete thanks to damage reduction of SY! If you want to apply condition, weakness is easier and cheaper to apply than blindness and does not require nearly dedicated build to keep up.

As dervish you have one huge advantgate that you did not consider yet: AOE Deep Wound on three second recharge. Noone else can do [Wounding Strike] spam like you. Well, assassin can, but they can not spam SY and WS together, now can they.